• You're viewing the Team9000 Archives. These old threads are closed to new comments, but if something interests you or you have a question, feel free to open a new thread in the main forums.

Suggestion for tranport networks -- (after wipe?)

munchkin19

munchkin19

Member
I've just been thinking around the whole horrible line-o-chuncks to spawn for minecart systems and how to reslove the due requiremnts of having transport to spawn with minimal griefing. I've had a couple ideas that could be of use (providing they can even be implemented).

1) Not really an idea - just an enforcement - NO LINE-O-CHUNCKS - yes claim outposts for stations to protect entrances and exits, but don't claim a line of chunks. Volilaters will have chuncks deleted with NO REFUND. If your line gets griefed, post in the forum and deal with it just like before. If someone legit claims a town on top of cart station - discuss options with them (see idea 4).

2) Another idea (is it technically possible?) is to surround spawn with a 3 chunk ring (like a larger sqaure around the spawn town). Only all town mayors (and/or assistants) allowed to build in it for the purpose of intergrated transport systems. This will allow stations to built and intergrated with each other but prevent the mass griefing that comes from being close to spawn.

3) Allow sizeable towns (or distant) towns to 'buy' a trader for use in their city. This trader could buy (and possible sell) with a 10% surcharge (eg : buys 1x diamond for $18) so people don't have to travel to spawn to buy/sell. (This trader could be used by nearby smaller towns also?) I'm sure i saw a recent post about remote traders...

4. Have someway of identifying where towns are (names) and who the mayor is for contacting regarding shared facilitaties/ building in claimed land. Although being able to see towns on the map is good, it would be really useful to see what the town name is and who owns it. Pehaps a forum post with town names and owners in? Some of use never see each other in game due to different time zones, and use different forum names making communication difficult.

5. And finally 'work' together. I see a lot of post on the forums about trustworthyness of people - seriously if you getting griefed or stuff stolen either your a) not using towny, b) have messed up towny permissions, or c) have invited 'the wrong' people in to your city (AND messed up the permissions). With a bit of clever thinking you can have guests visiting AND acessing switchs/doors without comprimising chest security. No need to isolate yourself from the rest of the world.

Finally - apologies if some of this has already been suggested...
 
I like the idea of purchasing a trader as upgrade to your town, even if hes comming with surcharge. The question probably is will the server ebdure this ammount of extra traders (i remember trader bob causing much trouble in the beginning). Maybe the extra traders can come after the 1.8 wipe, when npc-towns are included.

But a nice catalogue of suggestions you have thought of here.
 
I'm sure once NPCs are in place, it will either be possible to purchase a trader, or have one reside in your town. As far as having a surcharge assessed due to your distance from spawn, that seems bogus. Why shoud I get penalized for living far away from the CF that is Spawn? There's no room for growth and everyone is on top of everyone else, there's no view of the world.

Also, it has been said that Wooty has said that he will wipe single line plots from the server if they are a nuisance.
 
If towns get their own diamond traders it will eliminate the inter-city interactions to a minimum.
 
I think you can view who the mayor of a town is by typing /town "name". But seeing where the town is might really be helpful I agree. And additional traders should be kept to a minimum in order to encourage interaction between towns. Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything you said :D
 
1 - Not sure why there's been such an issue of this. I am not aware of one instance of "line-o-chunks" causing someone to not be able to build. Most of these complaints come from the unsupported complaint that these people could block spawn. No one has done that. However the argument that not claiming these spots results in griefers destroying paths is supported by the fact that some have been griefed when not claimed. The multiple day wait times on some grief fixes is not tolerable, whereas claiming the spots prevents it in the first place. If you want a true fix to this you need to add a new plot type where people buy building rights to a location. Once they do that, anything they build there can't be edited by others, but others can build as well and multiple people/towns can have build rights to a single plot.

4 - I already have some experience in this regard. I noticed a town trying to build a road to spawn and it needed to cross Fooville land. I laid down connecting bridges across our land so that they could get across. For communication, I laid down a series of signs just outside their home so they could see what was done and that they were free to connect to the cross pieces. Forum posts work as well, but signs were just as good.
 
Well, the assumption that the privatized line-o-chunks will be in the way is based on pure logic. At the moment it may be fine and a lot of people lucked out because they built their tracks before the lines were claimed. But at the current rate the area around spawn will be completely claimed resulting in new cities or cities that are not yet connected to spawn having to cross the so-called line-o-chunks, which is not possible. So, you're right, it's not a problem now, but it will be a problem and a very annoying and mostly unnecessary one at that. It is more than enough to claim one chunk (the one where your minecart entrance is located) - it is extremely unlikely that a griefer will actually dig down next to a claimed chunk and then
1. Guess the direction in which the minetrack is going
2. Actually guess the depth at which the minetrack is and
3. Find the minetrack in the first place.
 
You say unlikely. I say that I have actually found evidence of tunnels dug on the edge of town land which seem to be dug in such a method as to find a way into the underground tunnel networks.

You think it is that hard to guess the minetrack direction from spawn if you claim an outpost. Let me see, it is probably heading in the direction of the town that claimed it as an outpost.

The original Fooville spawn route was actually griefed by another town laying down their own tracks two levels higher than ours. You don't need to be precise to grief.

Since then we've actually moved above ground to make, what I consider to be, an attractive rail system designed at a height as to not impede the movements of others but also not be so high as to be unreal and offer a scenic ride to anyone who cares to take a trip. I would never have invested as much time and materials as was done in the rail system if it could not have been protected in some way from the kiddies. I have also attempted to work with other towns along the route to allow access through and as of last night, most of the major towns along the rail have access to the rail system itself, should they choose to use it.

I really don't see an issue with the line-o-chunks if the people are responsible citizens. Again, if there was a building rights option available, the issue would be moot. Property could be protected while not limiting the movements or construction of others at different levels.
 
There is no way of seeing which town an outpost belongs to without having gone to the city itself first. You may know the name of the town it belongs to, but not where it actually is.
And I don't think I understand where the problem is with having a minetrack system two blocks above your system - could you explain that again, please?

Sure, the system will work if cities will work together - that's what this thread is about, among other things. But at the moment most people are not using their line-o-chunks as a public transportation system but only to protect it against any intruders - including those who want to simply cross the chunk to have a minetrack to their hometown.

I did say unlikely which doesn't mean impossible. You have to agree though that it *is* very unlikely that a griefer finds both the exact height/depth and the position where the track leaves the claimed outpost chunk.
 
Bakamjakafoo said:
1 - Not sure why there's been such an issue of this. I am not aware of one instance of "line-o-chunks" causing someone to not be able to build. Most of these complaints come from the unsupported complaint that these people could block spawn. No one has done that. However the argument that not claiming these spots results in griefers destroying paths is supported by the fact that some have been griefed when not claimed. The multiple day wait times on some grief fixes is not tolerable, whereas claiming the spots prevents it in the first place. If you want a true fix to this you need to add a new plot type where people buy building rights to a location. Once they do that, anything they build there can't be edited by others, but others can build as well and multiple people/towns can have build rights to a single plot.

4 - I already have some experience in this regard. I noticed a town trying to build a road to spawn and it needed to cross Fooville land. I laid down connecting bridges across our land so that they could get across. For communication, I laid down a series of signs just outside their home so they could see what was done and that they were free to connect to the cross pieces. Forum posts work as well, but signs were just as good.
Click to expand...

Baka you missing the point here. The claimed lines making it impossible for many people to build their own minecart-track to spawn at all. I find it supportive of you that you are so helpful to others that want to build over fooville-claimed territory. But the lines are not entirely owned by Fooville and many others are not that supportive or not on the server if it comes to cross their land.

So dont make your experiences common rule for this matter. Thx
 
To explain the problem of two blocks above you have to visualize what that means:

Roof Block
Empty Block
Empty Block
Track on Block
Empty Block
Track on Block

Obviously the upper track on block works fine, but the lower track only has one block of free space above it.


As for making "my experiences common rule for this matter" it is already the common rule to claim property to protect your constructions from grief. What you and others want are a change to the current rule set. You are requesting YOUR experiences to be the common rule for this matter. I am simply working within the current rules and expressing my opinion from experience and from the response of the Admins. Unless something is done to prevent grief to public systems, some people are going to be hesitant to provide supplies and effort to build and maintain one.

If you honestly think I prefer wasting my town plots to claim a 1 chunk width of the map, you're crazy but I also don't trust anything built on unowned land won't be griefed simply for the sake of griefing. I've had water sources destroyed simply for being 1 block out of current town limits, holes drilled in non-town land in order to get into one of my resident's basements, my original track to spawn blocked off three times by three different groups for different reasons and I've actually watched someone probe for weaknesses (unclaimed portions) of builds so they could destroy anything they could get at. People suck, simple as that, especially when they have the anonymity of the Net. Unless we can have a build rights style of plot claiming for transit systems or other method of grief protection, the current method is the only method.
 
I respect your opinion even though it does seem a little bit selfish, but maybe your harsh tone is just because you wrote all that in the heat of the battle.
I don't quite agree with how you present your argument. You make us seem like we are a whiny bunch - I do hope you understand that we're just trying to find a solution to accommodate everyone, yes? I was never implying that you are breaking any rules.
All I am saying is that at the current rate a shitstorm is bound to break loose and the one-line claims are currently in a legal gray zone - what happens if a minetrack exists, someone else claims the chunk and griefs the existing minetrack. Is that griefing or someone just making use of their property? Just a random thought.
Also for your track problem: I don't see how this would work out without someone intentionally building within your minetrack system. In that case they griefed you and your case is an exception to the rule and I don't think we should count that as something that would occur regularly.

I understand that we are all terribly afraid of griefers, but it is also important to keep in mind newcomers to the servers that come to a server that don't get a chance to get all the benefits of having a minecart system to a city in the outer areas of the map. Also, McVit has a good point in that most people are not that generous about their line-o-chunks and will not use them to share.

This discussion is somewhat redundant and in the end it is up to admins to decide whether having line-o-chunks is a sensible choice or not. Munchkin has offered some good ideas and I'm sure the admins will take them into consideration.
 
In that case they griefed you and your case is an exception to the rule and I don't think we should count that as something that would occur regularly.
Click to expand...

An exception to a rule is supposed to be something infrequent. I provided multiple examples that this was not an infrequent event. The only thing stopping people from further griefing is ownership. I don't know how much others built in Outlands before the wipe, but griefing was not an infrequent event. It was an everyday occurrence. The skyways, used for public transport, were damaged regularly. Personally, I have no evidence to support this supposed Utopia of constructed buildings and transit pathways being respected by griefers and other players. As I've said repeatedly, we need a system for locking constructions to prevent grief. The towny system currently provides us with one obvious solution. To simply have paths to spawn and adjacent towns unprotected with the hope/expectation that others will respect the creation would require far more intervention by admins to repair grief and ban those responsible.

If those building around spawn and those with line-o-chunks start to use their locations to inhibit the movement of others by building walls, I can understand intervention, and I believe that is Woot's intention. Personally, I will continue to work with any town trying to pass through Fooville land as long as it is not an eyesore.
 
Bakamjakafoo said:
1 - Not sure why there's been such a.... Zzzz

4 - I already have some experience in this re... Zzzzzzzzz
Click to expand...


Actually I just have read your first line and decided that there's too much text for my brain to handle...
But there's still one question for me. Where is number 2 - and number 3- ?

@Topic: Nobody likes people who create plot lines. Ppl who create those are very selfish as they interupt
other players from creating own tracks to spawn.
 
Kuchenhorst said:
I respect your opinion even though it does seem a little bit selfish, but maybe your harsh tone is just because you wrote all that in the heat of the battle.

All I am saying is that at the current rate a shitstorm is bound to break loose and the one-line claims are currently in a legal gray zone - what happens if a minetrack exists, someone else claims the chunk and griefs the existing minetrack. Is that griefing or someone just making use of their property? Just a random thought.
Click to expand...

I found it somewhat ironic that you used the word selfish to describe Bakam's opinion. Everyone from Fooville appreciates the time and effort that went into creating a minecart system from spawn to Fooville. Any adventurers with structures along the line have been and always will be welcome to work with Fooville to utilize the tracks. A selfish opinion would have been one where Bakam was concerned primarily with his own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. I wouldn't call claiming land to protect a railway from grief and offering openly to work with others selfish.

In terms of griefing or making use of property, Fooville originally had an underground tunnel from spawn to Fooville on unclaimed land. On more than one occasion, the tunnel was griefed and closed off making it difficult to utilize after death. The claiming of the land and the creation of a railway has benefited Fooville, and should make things easier for other adventurers who do wish to work together. Not everyone has egoistic motives here. The intent of Fooville's claim was to not to interfere with others, but instead to provide a smooth transport system to and from spawn.

I love how people continue to consider others selfish for claiming land because they 'interrupt other players from creating their own tracks to spawn.' Hasn't it already been said if you are looking to create something on claimed land, try asking instead of assuming that you aren't allowed? Some people are indeed willing to work together to allow the land to function for more than one town.

And to Niamph, the first post has 5 points. Bakam's response addresses 1 and 4. He didn't address 2 or 3, hence their absence.
 
As it was already stated by you, you seem to be very cooperative to help crossing minetracks, but that's not always the case. Another thing to consider is, that at some point, people with so claimed minetracks will leave the server and thus are going to make construction across their property impossible. I also read from you thread, that you seemingly never have tried to use the introduced solution with the claimed outpost, so your estimation of being griefed with that is purely speculative. If you have any idea of mathematical probabilities you would clearly see how it's virtually impossible to find two lines of blocks in such a huge world. No one comes to a server, checks out an outpost, investigates to which city it belongs, and starts to grief EXACTLY you. Griefers don't put that much effort into trolling. In our experience it never happened on our minetracks. What you say about the admin delay is not true, since the reaction time recently after the wipe is about one day. At least I don't go to spawn on a daily base, so this reaction time is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. At least other people on the server can deal with it, and so should you.
On a foot note you should look up the exact definition of griefing and i mean not only in the minecraft context (destroying other peoples builds etc.). It is defined as destroying the fun in a game for other peoples. And I have to say, that's what selfish people that claim such one plot lines through the map do. If the server is running a while longer and building space around the spawn is getting rare, that's what is going to be the effect of such behaviour. At least when people have to ask multiple towns to get permissions for their minetracks it's going to get annoying. So in my opinion we have to regulate that before sh*t hits the fan.
 
Cerilath said:
I found it somewhat ironic that you used the word selfish to describe Bakam's opinion. Everyone from Fooville appreciates the time and effort that went into creating a minecart system from spawn to Fooville. Any adventurers with structures along the line have been and always will be welcome to work with Fooville to utilize the tracks. A selfish opinion would have been one where Bakam was concerned primarily with his own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. I wouldn't call claiming land to protect a railway from grief and offering openly to work with others selfish.

In terms of griefing or making use of property, Fooville originally had an underground tunnel from spawn to Fooville on unclaimed land. On more than one occasion, the tunnel was griefed and closed off making it difficult to utilize after death. The claiming of the land and the creation of a railway has benefited Fooville, and should make things easier for other adventurers who do wish to work together. Not everyone has egoistic motives here. The intent of Fooville's claim was to not to interfere with others, but instead to provide a smooth transport system to and from spawn.

I love how people continue to consider others selfish for claiming land because they 'interrupt other players from creating their own tracks to spawn.' Hasn't it already been said if you are looking to create something on claimed land, try asking instead of assuming that you aren't allowed? Some people are indeed willing to work together to allow the land to function for more than one town.

And to Niamph, the first post has 5 points. Bakam's response addresses 1 and 4. He didn't address 2 or 3, hence their absence.
Click to expand...

Cerilath, selfish is to assume that others have to ask you to build in reaction of your land mongering behaviour, selfish is to assume that claiming spaces is encouraging the work between cities and factions, selfish is to subordinate the needs of others to what's good and works for fooville and foolish is to destroy such a constructive thread with childish "but my town.."-posts. If claiming spots works for Fooville be happy but as Dein said destroying the fun in playing a game, which is the conclusion of this behaviour, is the actual definition of griefing.
 
Interestingly enough, you are incorrect. I did try an Outpost solution initially. And the first day my Outpost was up, I caught someone mining around that one chunk until they found a connecting tunnel down below. It took them some time, but they got in.

Have any idea about mathematical probabilities? Is this your attempt at being insulting and ignorant at the same time? Have you ever heard of the infinite monkey theorem? And yes, I am referring to griefers as a bunch of monkeys. It takes about a minute to reach bedrock from sea level using stone tools and less than 8 minutes by hand. If we assume they have some kind of tool it will take some amount of time between those two. At 16 blocks to a side and three sides to test (assume one side is spawn) there are 48 blocks. Only every other one need be tested to find a tunnel below assuming smallest tunnel possible, thus 24 blocks. Ignoring some obvious process of elimination with two or more outposts next to each other, we'll stick with 24 blocks. Without going into detailed probability calculations, we'll just assume that after 12 tunnels they have a better than 50% chance to find your tunnel. That's 12 minutes likely and 90 minutes assuming they punch their way through (highly unlikely). I've had griefers in Outlands spend 2 hours griefing my structures. I would not say that 12 minutes of searching is virtually impossible. Even 24 minutes for a full search is not even close to virtually impossible, especially when you introduce the infinite monkeys. It's not one griefer I am concerned with. It is the plethora of them that exist.

Find one person who I have denied permission to cross Fooville territory and I will consider the title of your definition of griefer. My town's path to spawn may be protectionist, but it is not griefing anyone. As I have said before, and I will reiterate, any person wishing to cross Fooville territory need only request, and as long as it isn't an eyesore, we'll be happy to assist.

As for Admin delay, I fully agree with you. I do not travel to spawn every single day. That is 100% correct. I am also not the only one utilizing the tracks. It was not designed to be MY tracks. Aside from the residents of Fooville, it was my intention to allow towns along its route to use as well. Fine, one day is only one day, but it is one avoidable delay by simply allowing us to use the tools provided to us already.

As for your initial and final argument about people leaving and having to ask permissions of multiple towns. If towns become inactive the Admins can remedy the situation on a case by case basis simply by the affected individuals posting a thread about the issue and to get permissions, you need to ask which is not a difficult task in the least. You might have to wait a day to get a response, but as you, yourself, said one day is perfectly acceptable.
 
Oh guys there is so much text here and I'm soo tired. I go to sleep now and maybe go on reading tomorrow. ;)

Edit: We never had any problems with this outpost solution. We had such thing before the recent wipe with no problems either. Camouflage baby1!!111 :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top