Kc006
Well-Known Member
Totally agree
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Ranks: An editorial by Crane
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Perquisition
Member
Hmmm....this is interesting. I may be the only one, but I lean more in the "disagree" category.
As a builder myself, I have to say that I think perceptions have been lost. When I started, I studied Minecraftwiki.com for basics and team9000's wiki for world and rank details. This gave me the idea that the ranks weren't the point of the game, but there was obvious benefit to achieving them. T9k plants that seed, when you join. The moment you show up, you have restrictions just in your gameplay; you cant use lava or water. So you have to call someone over, and quickly want to get out of that rank, so you dont need to be assisted every time. But there's a flipside to this as well- this plants the seeds in the Cool ranked players, to have them start contributing to the community.
But I never see Cool's helping...they're too busy building, trying to get to Builder rank. So instead, Builders end up doing Cool responsibilities, along with the obvious suggested ones such as hiding and patrolling. Builders end up doing the dirty work.
The Engineers are not in the trenches. The Builders are your ground troops.
We act as sergeants in the server, supervising the lower ranks, doing the hardcore patrolling and chat moderating, and reporting up-chain to our lieutenants, the Engineers, when they're present (which I will argue the fact that their aren't enough, and half of the time there are none on, then 5 on, then none...). Our problem is that those of us that dedicate all our time to keeping the server on track, instead of building anymore, cant back ourselves up in times when there's no one on. I couldn't tell you how many times I've dealt with troll's and griefers, threatening them with the facade of power, only to have them call my bluff, and there be no Eng+ around to help. I've already built a few dozen builds, (along with my beta project) and I'm burnt out on a great creation at the moment, but that doesn't mean I have to either build or leave. I choose to stay, and assist the community by patrolling, and doing all the repetitive answering ("type /rules to build", "you gotta post a screenshot on forums") that makes you throw your computer out the window. It would be nice to be rewarded for my service by being given the muscles to complete my rank-suggested tasks. I'll explain...
I argue that there aren't enough Engineers. There are enough Awesome's to come in at their current rate to revert and ban, but the /kick command should be passed to a few more obvious people. I could name a dozen right now, and not even include myself. Admittedly I would gladly take Engineer, and honestly will not lose my passion for its acquisition till I achieve it or burn out- But that doesn't derive from a sense of narcissism or egotism, looking for some lame-ass server fame. I want it because I want to be able to back-up the POINT of the responsibilities my rank already suggests- community service. (This is just a moment of honesty; Im not pitching for a promo. I learned a long time ago not to pester for Engineer.)
The current rank structure is so lopsided it doesn't make clear sense to new people. We've already picked up 100+ Builders since I joined, and I cant imagine how many cools have been added. It would only make sense that we would need a few more police around, cause our Guest ranks have inevitably exploded as well.
The highest praises coming to this thread are from those who have already received a rank higher than Builder. I'm sorry, but it seems like that come's from an "I got mine!" mentality.
No offense, that's just how it translates to me.
Please don't crucify me for this post, but I feel there needed to be a Devil's advocate present, and I am told I am very good in that role.
"The Defense rest's their case..."
As a builder myself, I have to say that I think perceptions have been lost. When I started, I studied Minecraftwiki.com for basics and team9000's wiki for world and rank details. This gave me the idea that the ranks weren't the point of the game, but there was obvious benefit to achieving them. T9k plants that seed, when you join. The moment you show up, you have restrictions just in your gameplay; you cant use lava or water. So you have to call someone over, and quickly want to get out of that rank, so you dont need to be assisted every time. But there's a flipside to this as well- this plants the seeds in the Cool ranked players, to have them start contributing to the community.
But I never see Cool's helping...they're too busy building, trying to get to Builder rank. So instead, Builders end up doing Cool responsibilities, along with the obvious suggested ones such as hiding and patrolling. Builders end up doing the dirty work.
The Engineers are not in the trenches. The Builders are your ground troops.
We act as sergeants in the server, supervising the lower ranks, doing the hardcore patrolling and chat moderating, and reporting up-chain to our lieutenants, the Engineers, when they're present (which I will argue the fact that their aren't enough, and half of the time there are none on, then 5 on, then none...). Our problem is that those of us that dedicate all our time to keeping the server on track, instead of building anymore, cant back ourselves up in times when there's no one on. I couldn't tell you how many times I've dealt with troll's and griefers, threatening them with the facade of power, only to have them call my bluff, and there be no Eng+ around to help. I've already built a few dozen builds, (along with my beta project) and I'm burnt out on a great creation at the moment, but that doesn't mean I have to either build or leave. I choose to stay, and assist the community by patrolling, and doing all the repetitive answering ("type /rules to build", "you gotta post a screenshot on forums") that makes you throw your computer out the window. It would be nice to be rewarded for my service by being given the muscles to complete my rank-suggested tasks. I'll explain...
I argue that there aren't enough Engineers. There are enough Awesome's to come in at their current rate to revert and ban, but the /kick command should be passed to a few more obvious people. I could name a dozen right now, and not even include myself. Admittedly I would gladly take Engineer, and honestly will not lose my passion for its acquisition till I achieve it or burn out- But that doesn't derive from a sense of narcissism or egotism, looking for some lame-ass server fame. I want it because I want to be able to back-up the POINT of the responsibilities my rank already suggests- community service. (This is just a moment of honesty; Im not pitching for a promo. I learned a long time ago not to pester for Engineer.)
The current rank structure is so lopsided it doesn't make clear sense to new people. We've already picked up 100+ Builders since I joined, and I cant imagine how many cools have been added. It would only make sense that we would need a few more police around, cause our Guest ranks have inevitably exploded as well.
The highest praises coming to this thread are from those who have already received a rank higher than Builder. I'm sorry, but it seems like that come's from an "I got mine!" mentality.
No offense, that's just how it translates to me.
Please don't crucify me for this post, but I feel there needed to be a Devil's advocate present, and I am told I am very good in that role.
"The Defense rest's their case..."
Perquisition
Member
I have, to find out that their all busy playing Team Fortress 2, or some other game...Im not saying it's always or even most of the time, but it does happen quite a bit. Could just be when Im on, but it does happen, and every time I'm already there filling that role- as I should.
How do you think everyone knows me? Its not just from the forums...
NewspaperCrane
Well-Known Member
Perquisition said:I have, to find out that their all busy playing Team Fortress 2, or some other game...Im not saying it's always or even most of the time, but it does happen quite a bit. Could just be when Im on, but it does happen, and every time I'm already there filling that role- as I should.
How do you think everyone knows me? Its not just from the forums...
Honestly... mumble shouldn't be the primary way you contact moderators..
That's not why its there. When were on mumble we typically want to hang out and have a good time. Its frustrating when were playing a different game and every five minutes someone comes in shouting "griefer!"
Godliberator
Well-Known Member
be mindful that minecraft is not the olny game that is played by team9000 and we are not 100% dedicated to it. The thing to think about when reading this is that ranks should not matter however they are a quite necessary part of the game due to the massive ammount of traffic onto the server and the large ammount of griefers/rulebreakers we see come to the server. Ranks should however mean nothing when it comes to playing the game. For an example, were I to be demoted it would not matter, would I loose some of the commands, of course, am I attached to those commands, not at all. I love minecraft because I get to build some awesome creations with a bunch of awesome people. I try to play every day for at least a little bit because I love the game. If I could play beta multiplayer with out my pc lagging to hell, I would sink hundreds of hours into that game as well, and the same goes for the many many other games that are played together as a community if my pc could handle those games. ranks dont matter in minecraft just as team9000 is far more than minecraft.
Hawke
Well-Known Member
I've personally heard multiple times admins telling that we should contact them through mumble if no one is available ingame.
mdukey
Active Member
.
NewspaperCrane
Well-Known Member
Hawke said:
That is true, however its not as true as it used to be. We have a lot more going on than we used to.
Godliberator
Well-Known Member
like hats in team fortress 2.
Perquisition
Member
Which is why I advocate an expansion in the ranks- There are quite a few of us more than willing and able and ready to shoulder the community burden that we already dedicate ourselves to. For example, since were the one's who followed the griefer, Id'd the blocks, got on mumble, tried to get support to no avail- We're still doin' the work! But with all the power of a mall security cop. Crane, you say "WE have a lot going on..." Why is there so much hesitation to bringing more people into that "We" category? We are obviously dedicating our service, and are choosing to do so in that fashion.
You cant just say "build and have fun", when you also tell your lower ranks to "report grief and help out" That creates a fork in the road for players like me, who can, and have built some cool shtuff, but notice that there is need for another helping hand. We shouldn't be chastised for wanting some bullets for the guns YOU (as in "We") gave us.
Unfortunately, this double standard given to the ranks only emphasizes the "I got mine!" mentality I'm talking about. You cant have your cake and eat it too. You cant say that the lower ranks need to just play, but then expect them to NOT want to achieve. Some do like to play and build, and sure, their rank is a representation of what they've accomplished (gasp!) But there are others who devote their time on Classic to ONLY assisting the community. A builder's promotion to Engineer is not the biggest point in their "ranking career", so to speak. A builder's promotion to Engineer simply gives him/her the tools they need to complete the job they have already undertaken a long time ago.
I just feel as if there's conflicting requests and responsibilities being down-channeled here. And it comes from those who've already obtained a "task-fulfilling" rank.
Almost all the Engineers here have declared how much of a blast it is to BE an Engineer. You cant expect others to not want that, especially when you're telling us to "have fun". From my perspective, trying to achieve Engineer so I can fully serve my community shouldn't be looked down upon, and in my opinion is a more qualifying factor than "We trust you".
EDIT: Hell, give me the name of ONE individual who has resigned from their Engineer+ rank to become a Builder- again. Not someone who moved away, or burnt out and disappeared from Minecraft....Im talkin an active player who said "I do not want the responsibilities of this rank, but thanks anyways" It would help the claim that "aww.. hell, I wouldnt mind if I lost my rank." But I see no one saying they would OFFER to resign from their higher-level ranking. (Im not saying you have to at all, either....)
Even the legendary's who show up quickly want to return to their Dark Blue name, to be back in that "Club"
NewspaperCrane
Well-Known Member
Honestly perquisition, as much as I would love to have this conversation with you, I no longer really feel that I am qualified to carry my own debate. I've isolated myself from the classic server for several months now... So I don't really know what's going on 'in the streets' so to speak.
I do however, feel that you've misunderstood the the meaning of my original post. Perhaps lack of context is to blame for that. When this post was written, I saw a lot of things going on in the community. 95 percent of our community was made up of people who came from minecraft. While there is nothing wrong with that by itself, the idea came a long with it that with your rank increasing, so did your rank in the community. That is simply not the way it should be. People were defining themselves by their classic rank. It wasn't uncommon to hear two Engineer+ members have a conversation about how many kicks they had. They were essentially measuring e-peen's. This isn't right. It's not about having a higher number of kicks then anyone else, it's about keeping everything clean
In the months since this post was written the Classic server has essentially been handed over to Casham and Conrod. From what I understand the two of them do a much better job handling the "Talent" management of the server.
I think you have misunderstood my meaning when I say "We" because I don't say this as an awesome rank, or an old t9k member... I say that as a member of the community. Recently I've seen a bit of shift from minecraft towards other games. I think this can be seen in the amount of tf2 that is played.
I do however, feel that you've misunderstood the the meaning of my original post. Perhaps lack of context is to blame for that. When this post was written, I saw a lot of things going on in the community. 95 percent of our community was made up of people who came from minecraft. While there is nothing wrong with that by itself, the idea came a long with it that with your rank increasing, so did your rank in the community. That is simply not the way it should be. People were defining themselves by their classic rank. It wasn't uncommon to hear two Engineer+ members have a conversation about how many kicks they had. They were essentially measuring e-peen's. This isn't right. It's not about having a higher number of kicks then anyone else, it's about keeping everything clean
In the months since this post was written the Classic server has essentially been handed over to Casham and Conrod. From what I understand the two of them do a much better job handling the "Talent" management of the server.
I think you have misunderstood my meaning when I say "We" because I don't say this as an awesome rank, or an old t9k member... I say that as a member of the community. Recently I've seen a bit of shift from minecraft towards other games. I think this can be seen in the amount of tf2 that is played.
Perquisition
Member
No No I dont want you to think this was an attack, either. I just felt another representation was needed, and Im not very good at looking at the date the thread im on was actually posted. And I fall very victim to old thread revivals.
And I can tell you that TF2's "free-ness" sure expanded its notoriety. That's the only way I heard of it. (Cant play it though. Restricted by my system...)
Although, great conversation and article by the way. Its always nice to read a clear and concise thread. Besides- its not like I disagreed with the WHOLE thing
Audi
Well-Known Member
Jeezuz... If there was a button for 'super-ultra-like', I would be mashing it furiously with unholy ferver.
I am so glad that I'm not the only one that likes to get their point across without resorting to picking up a pile of donkey-turd swearwords and dumping it on someone's head.
The way I see it, the ranks are O.K. There are good arguements for both sides, Perq. If Woot / Sonic gave out kick powers to every personality on the server, we would have really insane 'Coolkidfreake' problems. That being said, there are over 70, 000 guests on the server. That's a big number. At any one time, there could be hundreds of guests on. A few more engineers wouldn't hurt. There have been so many times where there's been a douche in front of me giving people a hard time, and I can't do anything. There are so many instances where I have helped people with lava or water, or explained EXACTLY WHAT'S IN THE /RULES to some silly person. I try to be nice, but sometimes I feel as if I just want to rip out a massive F-word. Seriously. A few more "deputies with a horn and a billy-club" would go a long way.
There are so many builders who make up and integral part of the community. Most of the forum traffic is exercised by builders, such as I. It would be dumb to say builders don't mean anything. Not to be rude, but we do a lot in the community. If you removed all the builders from the community, there would be hell. It would not be good.
Look, I try my best to be nice to the ranks. To be quite honest, I would really like to be an engineer, and if I belittle and critisize those with the power to rank me up, I'm digging my own not-gonna-get-anywhere grave. I'm just saying... A few more engineers wouldn't hurt. And I'm not saying that for self-gain or advertisement. There are truly deserving people - builders - on the server, that deserve to have a bit more power. At the end of the day, having the engineer rank is nice. It's a little kick, a little bonus. But the main reason people like Perq, or even myself, want the engineer rank, is so we can help the community better. To be recognized as an engineer and given more respect in the community is an added bonus.
I don't spend all my time on Classic. I play a lot of Beta. And recently, I HAVE been an engineer - in TF2.
The point being, the rank system isn't the problem. It's the distribution that is.
I know that's all pretty garbled, so thanks anyway.
I am so glad that I'm not the only one that likes to get their point across without resorting to picking up a pile of donkey-turd swearwords and dumping it on someone's head.
The way I see it, the ranks are O.K. There are good arguements for both sides, Perq. If Woot / Sonic gave out kick powers to every personality on the server, we would have really insane 'Coolkidfreake' problems. That being said, there are over 70, 000 guests on the server. That's a big number. At any one time, there could be hundreds of guests on. A few more engineers wouldn't hurt. There have been so many times where there's been a douche in front of me giving people a hard time, and I can't do anything. There are so many instances where I have helped people with lava or water, or explained EXACTLY WHAT'S IN THE /RULES to some silly person. I try to be nice, but sometimes I feel as if I just want to rip out a massive F-word. Seriously. A few more "deputies with a horn and a billy-club" would go a long way.
There are so many builders who make up and integral part of the community. Most of the forum traffic is exercised by builders, such as I. It would be dumb to say builders don't mean anything. Not to be rude, but we do a lot in the community. If you removed all the builders from the community, there would be hell. It would not be good.
Look, I try my best to be nice to the ranks. To be quite honest, I would really like to be an engineer, and if I belittle and critisize those with the power to rank me up, I'm digging my own not-gonna-get-anywhere grave. I'm just saying... A few more engineers wouldn't hurt. And I'm not saying that for self-gain or advertisement. There are truly deserving people - builders - on the server, that deserve to have a bit more power. At the end of the day, having the engineer rank is nice. It's a little kick, a little bonus. But the main reason people like Perq, or even myself, want the engineer rank, is so we can help the community better. To be recognized as an engineer and given more respect in the community is an added bonus.
I don't spend all my time on Classic. I play a lot of Beta. And recently, I HAVE been an engineer - in TF2.
The point being, the rank system isn't the problem. It's the distribution that is.
I know that's all pretty garbled, so thanks anyway.
mdukey
Active Member
I see where you are going with this, and I understand.
But, personally, I think we have enough engineers.
Yeah, most of them don't go on, but there's 33, I think? That's a lot, even if they don't go on exactly when there's a guest shouting "GRIEF
" Usually there is a pro/awesome/enigneer online to help, so in my opinion, even if there is builders that really, really, really help out to the community, there is a lot of engineers to handle most of the guests that come online.All in all, I respect your opinion.
Audi
Well-Known Member
I see where you are going with this, and I understand.
But, personally, I think we have enough engineers.
Yeah, most of them don't go on, but there's 33, I think? That's a lot, even if they don't go on exactly when there's a guest shouting "GRIEF
All in all, I respect your opinion.
Yeah, I guess. You're an engineer, aren't you, Mdukey? Look, in some ways yes, and in some ways no.
The engineers - all the engineers I know, anyhoo - are very dedicated, very switched-on players, who really help out. So I'm not critisizing the ability of the engineers.
What I have found is that often it is not the case that engineers+ are on. I've been on at times where there is absolutley NO engineer+'s on. When that happens, I get furious. I have to stand by and watch griefers grief, and there's nothing I can do. It's infuriating.
There's like 30 engineers, and 25 awesomes. That's 55 players plus the pros, epics, and very rarely owners. SO it's around 65 players dealing with over 70, 000 players. Even if you divide that all up, that's like 1 engineer+ for every 1,000 guests.
There are >480 builders. If even just 10 of them were engineers, that would make the odds much more favourable.
Even when engineers are on, it's a struggle. Without being able to revert (which is the main point for calling a rank anyway), engineers can only have a half-baked job. If there were a few more engineers - maybe that would make up for that shortcoming.
I'm glad people understand what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, and please, please don't think this is self-ratification or anything. I'm stating my view. If I was an Epic, I'd say the same thing. No joke.
Perquisition
Member
I see where you are going with this, and I understand.
But, personally, I think we have enough engineers.
Yeah, most of them don't go on, but there's 33, I think? That's a lot, even if they don't go on exactly when there's a guest shouting "GRIEF
All in all, I respect your opinion.
Even though there are 33 Engineers, I can only name you about 10-12 that are actually active. And I am on MC more than 6-8 hours every day (as a low!) There needs to be a scrub of the ranks and a huge Legendary increase, that way we can actually have 33 active engineers... In reality youre thinking (Max) 15 Engineers are good enough to serve as the first serious line of defense against our 70,000 new citizens. I disagree wholeheartedly that the current amount is enough, because the number's being used are not a correct representation.
(I know that the 70k number is just a registration amount, not an actual active player count; the same way the 33 Engineers is just a "registration amount", not an actual active player count.)
Who lit me on fire? I was just sayin?!!!
mdukey
Active Member
Yeah, I know how it feels.
Like if there is no pro or awesome online, all I can do is kick, and it gets really weird for me, because I don't wanna do it just to raise my kick count and be superior at kicks.
Usually, if there is lots of grief/trolling in the chat, what I usually do:
- Go on mumble
There has to be someone on mumble that is atleast awesome+ that can help you, i'm not saying engineers don't do anything, they do, but the person needs to get banned somehow, ya know?
And don't worry, If you're on the server, help out, have fun, be yourself, you'll get engineer in no time.
This has always been a problem, but I know some of the builders that are in the place in engineer so far, all it takes is time and patience.
So yeah man, I understand you
Good luck on getting engineer, we could possibly kick together!
Like if there is no pro or awesome online, all I can do is kick, and it gets really weird for me, because I don't wanna do it just to raise my kick count and be superior at kicks.
Usually, if there is lots of grief/trolling in the chat, what I usually do:
- Go on mumble
There has to be someone on mumble that is atleast awesome+ that can help you, i'm not saying engineers don't do anything, they do, but the person needs to get banned somehow, ya know?
And don't worry, If you're on the server, help out, have fun, be yourself, you'll get engineer in no time.
This has always been a problem, but I know some of the builders that are in the place in engineer so far, all it takes is time and patience.
So yeah man, I understand you
Good luck on getting engineer, we could possibly kick together!
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